Wednesday, November 08, 2006
dreaming - reply to lucyna
Silly computer. I can't post a comment to my own blog. Nevermind. I suppose Mercury is still retrograde (communication & technical problems). And the work phones/networks have been very very dodgy as well. Anyway, I am getting off-track. Here is my reply to Lucyna's comment from the post before this one. Chefen is right, she does have a talent for starting very interesting conversations!
Words that are in italics are lucyna's. Words that aren't are mine. Warning it is long and waffly and probably very boring for anyone only interested in the nitty gritty of material life. And probably very annoying for people who like things black and white with definite opinions and answers.
Well, on some level you are correct in that life is just a part of a much greater reality
Well, I think that you and I believe so. Maybe other people don't? Or maybe other people are not as interested in thinking about it? Hard to tell and I guess it does not matter ;)
I think what gets me going on comparing life to a dream is the implication that nothing we do matters, just like in a dream nothing matters particularly much.
Ah. I think I see where you are coming from now! Yes we have different philosophies and views on this. I am not very good with the middle of the road stuff. My view is both that nothing matters and that everything matters. Which confuses people (especially logical rational scientists) and makes it hard to explain and so I don't often try. Although it is not exactly "nothing matters and everything matters," those are just the best words I can find at the moment to describe what I think/feel. All these sorts of ideas are like concept clouds in my head. They are more feelings/knowings. I don't think about these things in words, so it is hard to translate. Or perhaps it is beyond words? Perhaps that is why there is so much metaphor and analogy, which adds to the confusion and disagreements around spirtuality and religion - we are trying to use everyday language to describe something that is beyond language? I find it easier to paint these ideas. Or just think them quietly to myself.
I like the "nothing matters" part because I think that many people are very concerned and focused on things that do not actually matter. I sometimes get caught up and obsess about things that are not that important.
Life is far more real than that - what we do can have very permanent consequences
I agree. Everything we do has consequences. I would even go so far as to say that everything we think and feel has consequences. I guess where we might differ is that I think dreams are real too and have consequences, and that the "bigger dream" is real and has consequences. So there are different levels of reality,and different levels of consequences and different levels of things mattering.... hmm...
And so permanence is relative. What is permanent in the dream, is not permanent in real life. And if real life is like a dream in that there is a greater reality, perhaps what is permanent here is not permanent "out there." Which would make sense if you believe in everlasting life and that death is only the body dying, not the soul. Although perhaps it is not supposed to "make sense."
Hmmm.. have not thought about this before... so this is just what is popping out of my fingers as I type... interesting...
You can kill someone close to you in a dream, and the next morning you wake up and they are very much alive as an example
Yes! Although I am sure we will interpret this differently :)
I think that the consequences of killing someone in a dream are only effective (not the right word) in the dream, ie if you kill someone in a dream then they are only dead in the dream (unless you have weird dreams like I do). But in the dream you often would not know that they are not really dead and that it is only a dream (unless you are good at dreaming like you are). But the consequences of what you do in the dream also ripple out into real life. I know if I had a dream about killing someone I would feel/think and maybe behave differently in "real life" because of it. It would make me question things and look more closely at my life and maybe change things.
Perhaps saying that life is like a dream is questioning what we mean by permanence.
Having said all that I think that it is important to do the best you can regardless of whether it is a dream or real life or wherever you find yourself. But I also believe that everyone is doing their best anyway. So therefore it does not really matter. It's one of those duality things again.
I also believe that people should do/stand up for what is important to them. Which is why I like reading what you write and discussing things with you. I like that you have firm beliefs and stand up for them. I do not have to believe the same thing, although I suspect many of our beliefs overlap and we just have different interpretations of things. For example, I would not call myself "Christian" because my interpretation of what Jesus said is very different from most other people's. But I am choosing to believe in and follow what he is said to have said (interpreted in my own way) so I am not exactly not a Christian either.
I like the idea that we are in exile here, this is not our natural reality but it is one we have to live in and it is one we have to succeed in to get back to where our true home is
This is a common theme among all religions isn't it? I like this idea too but I don't think of it as exile. I think of it as we are here to play. Or perhaps I should say I am here to play and have fun and learn. I also think of "true home" as more of a state or another dimension rather than a place that you travel in space to go to. The home metaphor is good though. It is hard to think in those extra dimensions!
These beliefs suit me at the moment. I am quite sure they would not suit everyone. That's OK. By the same token other people's beliefs are not necessarily good for me. Which reminds me of another couple of quotes (paraphrased) I like at the moment:
Beliefs are just thoughts you think a lot.
It does not matter what you believe because what is true is not dependent on your belief and it will be true regardless.
Words that are in italics are lucyna's. Words that aren't are mine. Warning it is long and waffly and probably very boring for anyone only interested in the nitty gritty of material life. And probably very annoying for people who like things black and white with definite opinions and answers.
Well, on some level you are correct in that life is just a part of a much greater reality
Well, I think that you and I believe so. Maybe other people don't? Or maybe other people are not as interested in thinking about it? Hard to tell and I guess it does not matter ;)
I think what gets me going on comparing life to a dream is the implication that nothing we do matters, just like in a dream nothing matters particularly much.
Ah. I think I see where you are coming from now! Yes we have different philosophies and views on this. I am not very good with the middle of the road stuff. My view is both that nothing matters and that everything matters. Which confuses people (especially logical rational scientists) and makes it hard to explain and so I don't often try. Although it is not exactly "nothing matters and everything matters," those are just the best words I can find at the moment to describe what I think/feel. All these sorts of ideas are like concept clouds in my head. They are more feelings/knowings. I don't think about these things in words, so it is hard to translate. Or perhaps it is beyond words? Perhaps that is why there is so much metaphor and analogy, which adds to the confusion and disagreements around spirtuality and religion - we are trying to use everyday language to describe something that is beyond language? I find it easier to paint these ideas. Or just think them quietly to myself.
I like the "nothing matters" part because I think that many people are very concerned and focused on things that do not actually matter. I sometimes get caught up and obsess about things that are not that important.
Life is far more real than that - what we do can have very permanent consequences
I agree. Everything we do has consequences. I would even go so far as to say that everything we think and feel has consequences. I guess where we might differ is that I think dreams are real too and have consequences, and that the "bigger dream" is real and has consequences. So there are different levels of reality,and different levels of consequences and different levels of things mattering.... hmm...
And so permanence is relative. What is permanent in the dream, is not permanent in real life. And if real life is like a dream in that there is a greater reality, perhaps what is permanent here is not permanent "out there." Which would make sense if you believe in everlasting life and that death is only the body dying, not the soul. Although perhaps it is not supposed to "make sense."
Hmmm.. have not thought about this before... so this is just what is popping out of my fingers as I type... interesting...
You can kill someone close to you in a dream, and the next morning you wake up and they are very much alive as an example
Yes! Although I am sure we will interpret this differently :)
I think that the consequences of killing someone in a dream are only effective (not the right word) in the dream, ie if you kill someone in a dream then they are only dead in the dream (unless you have weird dreams like I do). But in the dream you often would not know that they are not really dead and that it is only a dream (unless you are good at dreaming like you are). But the consequences of what you do in the dream also ripple out into real life. I know if I had a dream about killing someone I would feel/think and maybe behave differently in "real life" because of it. It would make me question things and look more closely at my life and maybe change things.
Perhaps saying that life is like a dream is questioning what we mean by permanence.
Having said all that I think that it is important to do the best you can regardless of whether it is a dream or real life or wherever you find yourself. But I also believe that everyone is doing their best anyway. So therefore it does not really matter. It's one of those duality things again.
I also believe that people should do/stand up for what is important to them. Which is why I like reading what you write and discussing things with you. I like that you have firm beliefs and stand up for them. I do not have to believe the same thing, although I suspect many of our beliefs overlap and we just have different interpretations of things. For example, I would not call myself "Christian" because my interpretation of what Jesus said is very different from most other people's. But I am choosing to believe in and follow what he is said to have said (interpreted in my own way) so I am not exactly not a Christian either.
I like the idea that we are in exile here, this is not our natural reality but it is one we have to live in and it is one we have to succeed in to get back to where our true home is
This is a common theme among all religions isn't it? I like this idea too but I don't think of it as exile. I think of it as we are here to play. Or perhaps I should say I am here to play and have fun and learn. I also think of "true home" as more of a state or another dimension rather than a place that you travel in space to go to. The home metaphor is good though. It is hard to think in those extra dimensions!
These beliefs suit me at the moment. I am quite sure they would not suit everyone. That's OK. By the same token other people's beliefs are not necessarily good for me. Which reminds me of another couple of quotes (paraphrased) I like at the moment:
Beliefs are just thoughts you think a lot.
It does not matter what you believe because what is true is not dependent on your belief and it will be true regardless.
Labels: beliefs, dreams, reply, thoughts
// posted by suze @ 1:27 PM 
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I'm having trouble too. I keep getting logged out, I can't remember my password or username so I have to go the the blogger dashboard to log myself back in again and then return here to post my comment.
When I was talking about consequences in dreams, I was talking very generally. Like my example where you kill someone in a dream who is very much alive the next morning. I too believe there are consequences to dreams. I've had a few that directly helped me change fundamental aspects of my personality - for the better.
But, the general understanding of your average everyday person is that a dream is not real and nothing that occurs in a dream is real. Therefore the thought that life is but a dream to that person equates a reality where nothing matters to real life.
I have to go out, so will continue this later.
When I was talking about consequences in dreams, I was talking very generally. Like my example where you kill someone in a dream who is very much alive the next morning. I too believe there are consequences to dreams. I've had a few that directly helped me change fundamental aspects of my personality - for the better.
But, the general understanding of your average everyday person is that a dream is not real and nothing that occurs in a dream is real. Therefore the thought that life is but a dream to that person equates a reality where nothing matters to real life.
I have to go out, so will continue this later.
Suze, you said I like the "nothing matters" part because I think that many people are very concerned and focused on things that do not actually matter. I sometimes get caught up and obsess about things that are not that important.
The problem with this way of thinking is going from, as you say obsessing about the trivial to having everything be trivial is that you never get to decide what really is important and act on that. Because there are really important things in life that do matter and if they are just swept in with the trivial, they get lost.
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The problem with this way of thinking is going from, as you say obsessing about the trivial to having everything be trivial is that you never get to decide what really is important and act on that. Because there are really important things in life that do matter and if they are just swept in with the trivial, they get lost.
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